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	Comments on: Conclusions Without the Facts	</title>
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		<title>
		By: Kim		</title>
		<link>https://orthodoxandgay.com/conclusions-without-the-facts#comment-82051</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kim]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jan 2019 20:50:36 +0000</pubDate>
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					<description><![CDATA[Reducing the thoughts and concerns of individuals to a &quot;cheerleading flock&quot; is belittling at best and dehumanizing to be honest. Think about how you speak to others, especially those who are powerless and ostracized.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Reducing the thoughts and concerns of individuals to a &#8220;cheerleading flock&#8221; is belittling at best and dehumanizing to be honest. Think about how you speak to others, especially those who are powerless and ostracized.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Anonymous		</title>
		<link>https://orthodoxandgay.com/conclusions-without-the-facts#comment-76395</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 May 2017 23:31:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.orthodoxandgay.com/?p=2579#comment-76395</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Yes indeed. Enjoy the cheerleading flock. Mark, the &quot;applause&quot; sign is lit.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes indeed. Enjoy the cheerleading flock. Mark, the &#8220;applause&#8221; sign is lit.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Mark Brunson		</title>
		<link>https://orthodoxandgay.com/conclusions-without-the-facts#comment-76394</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mark Brunson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 May 2017 05:21:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.orthodoxandgay.com/?p=2579#comment-76394</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Leave them behind.  If they will not shake the dust from their feet, shake it from yours, and &quot;These Egyptians you see today, you shall never see again.&quot;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Leave them behind.  If they will not shake the dust from their feet, shake it from yours, and &#8220;These Egyptians you see today, you shall never see again.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>
		By: Mark Brunson		</title>
		<link>https://orthodoxandgay.com/conclusions-without-the-facts#comment-76393</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mark Brunson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 May 2017 05:14:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.orthodoxandgay.com/?p=2579#comment-76393</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[You see, Andre - they are like pharaoh:  God has hardened their hearts so that we may be free of them.  Like all slave-owners, they won&#039;t let you go easily, because they hate and fear your freedom in Christ.  

Be free of them.   Leave the dead to bury the dead.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You see, Andre &#8211; they are like pharaoh:  God has hardened their hearts so that we may be free of them.  Like all slave-owners, they won&#8217;t let you go easily, because they hate and fear your freedom in Christ.  </p>
<p>Be free of them.   Leave the dead to bury the dead.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Anonymous		</title>
		<link>https://orthodoxandgay.com/conclusions-without-the-facts#comment-76391</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 May 2017 23:19:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.orthodoxandgay.com/?p=2579#comment-76391</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Good question Andre -  &quot;why don&#039;t we shake the dust from our feet against you and keep coming back?&quot;

Really? That is what hurts your friends? Disagreement not vanishing from the face of the earth?

They ask &quot;why&quot;. Here&#039;s why. Because you are making up a heresy, measuring up Orthodoxy and the Fathers by the measure of private likes and dislikes - and even that would be ok, if kept to your private damage; after all, it&#039;s your life, your choice. 
But making fool of unsuspected Christians, leading them into believing that they will be &quot;blessed&quot; through sodomy, THAT is evil, THAT is hate - hate for truth. You see, Christ warned of those who do not enter the kingdom of heaven and at the same time neither let others enter. Maybe your &quot;Love/Hate&quot; motto-repeating friends will classify His words at that context as &quot;hate&quot; too. Well, too bad, can&#039;t do anything about that.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good question Andre &#8211;  &#8220;why don&#8217;t we shake the dust from our feet against you and keep coming back?&#8221;</p>
<p>Really? That is what hurts your friends? Disagreement not vanishing from the face of the earth?</p>
<p>They ask &#8220;why&#8221;. Here&#8217;s why. Because you are making up a heresy, measuring up Orthodoxy and the Fathers by the measure of private likes and dislikes &#8211; and even that would be ok, if kept to your private damage; after all, it&#8217;s your life, your choice.<br />
But making fool of unsuspected Christians, leading them into believing that they will be &#8220;blessed&#8221; through sodomy, THAT is evil, THAT is hate &#8211; hate for truth. You see, Christ warned of those who do not enter the kingdom of heaven and at the same time neither let others enter. Maybe your &#8220;Love/Hate&#8221; motto-repeating friends will classify His words at that context as &#8220;hate&#8221; too. Well, too bad, can&#8217;t do anything about that.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Mark Brunson		</title>
		<link>https://orthodoxandgay.com/conclusions-without-the-facts#comment-76387</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mark Brunson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 May 2017 10:17:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.orthodoxandgay.com/?p=2579#comment-76387</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[See, Andre.

They absolutely refuse.  Absolutely.  Any time you refuse to frame everything in *their* terms, they cry oppression and hypocrisy, and, as usual, make it all about them.  That isn&#039;t love.  If you want, go ahead and post the list of &quot;gotcha&quot; questions the above poster, and I guarantee you that no answer will be sufficient.  When that happens, the charges of turning willfully from Christ will come, just as predictably as the pseudo outrage at being called out for their behavior.  At most, you&#039;ll get a lot of stuff about &quot;ineffable&quot; and &quot;mystical&quot; and &quot;mystery&quot; and &quot;tradition&quot; - it&#039;s the standard fall-back, when authority is absent.  No possible way tradition could be wrong, because, of course, error only became possible *recently*, no possible way deviation from tradition could be right, for the same reason.  Everyone is an erring sinner, except of course the elusive &quot;fathers&quot; of the Church (and how conveniently the &quot;fathers&#039;&quot; prejudices reflect their own - which could not, of course, be, in any way, a reflection of *their* underlying brokenness, but their, and their adherents absolute comprehension of what is right.  Why?  Because they said so and it&#039;s an ineffable mystical mystery of tradition).   

Now, given that sort of trickery and emotional manipulation, that sort of absolute disdain and rejection, how could that be anything but hate?   It&#039;s the pattern of an emotionally-abusive parent or spouse.  What good can come of it?  If they truly believed what they say, wouldn&#039;t they also welcome the chance to &quot;shake the dust from their feet&quot; against us?  Why come back?  Because they can&#039;t beat you down, can&#039;t raise themselves up by it, if the relationship is over.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>See, Andre.</p>
<p>They absolutely refuse.  Absolutely.  Any time you refuse to frame everything in *their* terms, they cry oppression and hypocrisy, and, as usual, make it all about them.  That isn&#8217;t love.  If you want, go ahead and post the list of &#8220;gotcha&#8221; questions the above poster, and I guarantee you that no answer will be sufficient.  When that happens, the charges of turning willfully from Christ will come, just as predictably as the pseudo outrage at being called out for their behavior.  At most, you&#8217;ll get a lot of stuff about &#8220;ineffable&#8221; and &#8220;mystical&#8221; and &#8220;mystery&#8221; and &#8220;tradition&#8221; &#8211; it&#8217;s the standard fall-back, when authority is absent.  No possible way tradition could be wrong, because, of course, error only became possible *recently*, no possible way deviation from tradition could be right, for the same reason.  Everyone is an erring sinner, except of course the elusive &#8220;fathers&#8221; of the Church (and how conveniently the &#8220;fathers'&#8221; prejudices reflect their own &#8211; which could not, of course, be, in any way, a reflection of *their* underlying brokenness, but their, and their adherents absolute comprehension of what is right.  Why?  Because they said so and it&#8217;s an ineffable mystical mystery of tradition).   </p>
<p>Now, given that sort of trickery and emotional manipulation, that sort of absolute disdain and rejection, how could that be anything but hate?   It&#8217;s the pattern of an emotionally-abusive parent or spouse.  What good can come of it?  If they truly believed what they say, wouldn&#8217;t they also welcome the chance to &#8220;shake the dust from their feet&#8221; against us?  Why come back?  Because they can&#8217;t beat you down, can&#8217;t raise themselves up by it, if the relationship is over.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Αθανάσιος		</title>
		<link>https://orthodoxandgay.com/conclusions-without-the-facts#comment-76375</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Αθανάσιος]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 May 2017 06:22:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.orthodoxandgay.com/?p=2579#comment-76375</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Some of the &#039;gifts&#039; I -and others- are hereby presented with:
-	Andre: “they throw stones”, “they condemn us”, they “lack intelligence, humility, compassion or all of the above”, their conclusions are “deeply offensive to the God”
-	Rick: “smug, self satisfied, totally ignorant, self righteous, asking for a slap.”
-	Marika: “unfortunate by-product of membership in the Church”, led by fear and bigotry, “undeserving the dignity of an argument”.
-	Mark: “they HATE us”, “they see us as lower life forms”
This portrays the measure of your tolerance for the discomforting opposite view. Your understanding of “dialogue” is pretty interesting: you can go on discussing to fish for a flaw or a new argument, but when it stops suiting you, there is always a standard “exit strategy”: any argument you receive from married heterosexuals is de facto invalid as they do not understand gays! 
How convenient!

Andre, I wrote you entire pages and you selected one excerpt and made a flag of it. I gave you so many questions to answer and you dodged, quote, “While I would like to engage you on every point that you have raised, I would like to begin with a simple question…” – but you never took the challenge to reply to a single one of these (and numerous subsequent) arguments I posed.  
How convenient!

But you know what truly offends me Andre? Flirting priesthood status. When you state outloud that you have abandoned priesthood on your own (as if you could continue anyway!) you should have the dignity to not accept others calling you “father”. Instead, you have replied that you leave it to God to judge if the grace of fatherhood has ever left you. And again your name comes up in every review on controversial books with the fat bold title “written by an Orthodox Bishop” on the front cover, who is ...anonymous. 
How convenient!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some of the &#8216;gifts&#8217; I -and others- are hereby presented with:<br />
&#8211;	Andre: “they throw stones”, “they condemn us”, they “lack intelligence, humility, compassion or all of the above”, their conclusions are “deeply offensive to the God”<br />
&#8211;	Rick: “smug, self satisfied, totally ignorant, self righteous, asking for a slap.”<br />
&#8211;	Marika: “unfortunate by-product of membership in the Church”, led by fear and bigotry, “undeserving the dignity of an argument”.<br />
&#8211;	Mark: “they HATE us”, “they see us as lower life forms”<br />
This portrays the measure of your tolerance for the discomforting opposite view. Your understanding of “dialogue” is pretty interesting: you can go on discussing to fish for a flaw or a new argument, but when it stops suiting you, there is always a standard “exit strategy”: any argument you receive from married heterosexuals is de facto invalid as they do not understand gays!<br />
How convenient!</p>
<p>Andre, I wrote you entire pages and you selected one excerpt and made a flag of it. I gave you so many questions to answer and you dodged, quote, “While I would like to engage you on every point that you have raised, I would like to begin with a simple question…” – but you never took the challenge to reply to a single one of these (and numerous subsequent) arguments I posed.<br />
How convenient!</p>
<p>But you know what truly offends me Andre? Flirting priesthood status. When you state outloud that you have abandoned priesthood on your own (as if you could continue anyway!) you should have the dignity to not accept others calling you “father”. Instead, you have replied that you leave it to God to judge if the grace of fatherhood has ever left you. And again your name comes up in every review on controversial books with the fat bold title “written by an Orthodox Bishop” on the front cover, who is &#8230;anonymous.<br />
How convenient!</p>
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		<title>
		By: andre		</title>
		<link>https://orthodoxandgay.com/conclusions-without-the-facts#comment-73889</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[andre]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Dec 2016 00:40:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.orthodoxandgay.com/?p=2579#comment-73889</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://orthodoxandgay.com/conclusions-without-the-facts#comment-72828&quot;&gt;Thomas&lt;/a&gt;.

Thomas,
I hope that you will reconsider attending the Divine Liturgy. The grace that flows at the mystery is indeed one of Christ&#039;s greatest gifts to us. I understand you might have been hurt, many of us have been injured by other Orthodox, some well meaning, others meaning us harm. Please know that you are loved and cared for by God Himself. I bid you peace. Andriy]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://orthodoxandgay.com/conclusions-without-the-facts#comment-72828">Thomas</a>.</p>
<p>Thomas,<br />
I hope that you will reconsider attending the Divine Liturgy. The grace that flows at the mystery is indeed one of Christ&#8217;s greatest gifts to us. I understand you might have been hurt, many of us have been injured by other Orthodox, some well meaning, others meaning us harm. Please know that you are loved and cared for by God Himself. I bid you peace. Andriy</p>
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		<title>
		By: Thomas		</title>
		<link>https://orthodoxandgay.com/conclusions-without-the-facts#comment-72828</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Thomas]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Nov 2016 15:49:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.orthodoxandgay.com/?p=2579#comment-72828</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Andre, thank you do this website and your service. I am Orthodox and gay. I have not attended Divine Liturgy for a few years due to some experiences I had with local Church . I miss attending services and being with other Orthodox Christians. Your comments above give me such hope and optimism that God will change hearts regarding homosexuality. I plan on returning to attending Divine Liturgy and Holy Communion. Just have to be careful and cautious but I firmly believe that we must work in love and trust in Christ. Thank you and God bless you.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Andre, thank you do this website and your service. I am Orthodox and gay. I have not attended Divine Liturgy for a few years due to some experiences I had with local Church . I miss attending services and being with other Orthodox Christians. Your comments above give me such hope and optimism that God will change hearts regarding homosexuality. I plan on returning to attending Divine Liturgy and Holy Communion. Just have to be careful and cautious but I firmly believe that we must work in love and trust in Christ. Thank you and God bless you.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Mark		</title>
		<link>https://orthodoxandgay.com/conclusions-without-the-facts#comment-67217</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mark]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Sep 2016 03:48:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.orthodoxandgay.com/?p=2579#comment-67217</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I pray that you are right, Fr. Andre!  I long for the day that they can understand we aren&#039;t asking for sexual license, but the same rights - AND responsibilities! - as they have, given our orientation to the same sex.  The slippery slope argument makes me despair over some peoples&#039; turning their backs on the simple reality - which, yes, I believe is of God.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I pray that you are right, Fr. Andre!  I long for the day that they can understand we aren&#8217;t asking for sexual license, but the same rights &#8211; AND responsibilities! &#8211; as they have, given our orientation to the same sex.  The slippery slope argument makes me despair over some peoples&#8217; turning their backs on the simple reality &#8211; which, yes, I believe is of God.</p>
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