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	Comments on: No greater agony, the untold story	</title>
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		<title>
		By: andre		</title>
		<link>https://orthodoxandgay.com/no-greater-agony-the-untold-story#comment-78118</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[andre]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Jan 2018 01:04:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.orthodoxandgay.com/?p=1758#comment-78118</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://orthodoxandgay.com/no-greater-agony-the-untold-story#comment-78030&quot;&gt;Irene&lt;/a&gt;.

Irene,
Thank you for your kind words as well as your insightful comments. You are correct that the vast majority of people who are LGBT do not choose their sexual orientation. It is something as natural to us as eye color or being right or left handed. Certainly, various man-made creations can change our eye color from what God gave us, and be forced to use our non-dominant hand - also chosen by God, but this would not be faithful to the way our Creator made us.

Your comments about the role of women in the Church are also welcomed.  What always amused me is that boys - of all ages - were routinely brought into the altar to serve as &quot;altar boys&quot; and yet women were not. The tradition of the Church is that no one is allowed into the altar unless they have been &quot;set-aside&quot; or blessed to be there.  What makes it alright for all Orthodox boys and men to have the right to be in the altar?

Thank you again for your support and comments.
I bid you peace,
Andriy]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://orthodoxandgay.com/no-greater-agony-the-untold-story#comment-78030">Irene</a>.</p>
<p>Irene,<br />
Thank you for your kind words as well as your insightful comments. You are correct that the vast majority of people who are LGBT do not choose their sexual orientation. It is something as natural to us as eye color or being right or left handed. Certainly, various man-made creations can change our eye color from what God gave us, and be forced to use our non-dominant hand &#8211; also chosen by God, but this would not be faithful to the way our Creator made us.</p>
<p>Your comments about the role of women in the Church are also welcomed.  What always amused me is that boys &#8211; of all ages &#8211; were routinely brought into the altar to serve as &#8220;altar boys&#8221; and yet women were not. The tradition of the Church is that no one is allowed into the altar unless they have been &#8220;set-aside&#8221; or blessed to be there.  What makes it alright for all Orthodox boys and men to have the right to be in the altar?</p>
<p>Thank you again for your support and comments.<br />
I bid you peace,<br />
Andriy</p>
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		<title>
		By: Irene		</title>
		<link>https://orthodoxandgay.com/no-greater-agony-the-untold-story#comment-78030</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Irene]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 Dec 2017 03:43:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.orthodoxandgay.com/?p=1758#comment-78030</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Thank you for having the courage to come forward with your story.  I do believe only through open discussion can there be any real reconciliation.  As a life-long Orthodox Christian who takes faith very seriously, I am very conflicted about this issue.  On the one hand I have neighbors, colleagues, friends who are LGTB who are the nicest, most intelligent, most respected and upstanding members of their communities.  On the other, I have the Church that unequivocally and categorically denounces their &quot;lifestyle.&quot;  I cannot not obey the canons of our faith as that would be rejecting it.  And the arguments make sense.  But if someone&#039;s orientation is not in their control, how can they be responsible for what seems natural to them?  Is it really sinful if this is what is in you?  

I do not know what to think.  I can only imagine the agony of what it must feel to be gay in an Orthodox context.  The Orthodox Church is very obstinate with regards to gender in general.  Just to swerve from this issue to a related one, as a woman in the church I feel very overlooked, second-class, undervalued.  Why is it that dogmatically the church sees nothing wrong with establishing a female diaconate but takes no action to provide a more active liturgical role for its women and girls?  Gender is one of the issues the Church has really got to come together and do re-vision.  Otherwise, it will become a static unliving unyielding straight jacket which many will not support.  This is happening as we speak.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for having the courage to come forward with your story.  I do believe only through open discussion can there be any real reconciliation.  As a life-long Orthodox Christian who takes faith very seriously, I am very conflicted about this issue.  On the one hand I have neighbors, colleagues, friends who are LGTB who are the nicest, most intelligent, most respected and upstanding members of their communities.  On the other, I have the Church that unequivocally and categorically denounces their &#8220;lifestyle.&#8221;  I cannot not obey the canons of our faith as that would be rejecting it.  And the arguments make sense.  But if someone&#8217;s orientation is not in their control, how can they be responsible for what seems natural to them?  Is it really sinful if this is what is in you?  </p>
<p>I do not know what to think.  I can only imagine the agony of what it must feel to be gay in an Orthodox context.  The Orthodox Church is very obstinate with regards to gender in general.  Just to swerve from this issue to a related one, as a woman in the church I feel very overlooked, second-class, undervalued.  Why is it that dogmatically the church sees nothing wrong with establishing a female diaconate but takes no action to provide a more active liturgical role for its women and girls?  Gender is one of the issues the Church has really got to come together and do re-vision.  Otherwise, it will become a static unliving unyielding straight jacket which many will not support.  This is happening as we speak.</p>
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		<title>
		By: andre		</title>
		<link>https://orthodoxandgay.com/no-greater-agony-the-untold-story#comment-43450</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[andre]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Sep 2015 01:11:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.orthodoxandgay.com/?p=1758#comment-43450</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://orthodoxandgay.com/no-greater-agony-the-untold-story#comment-43420&quot;&gt;Bob&lt;/a&gt;.

Bob,
Thank you for your email. You are not being disrespectful.  Dialogue on this issue is vital, as it does indeed affect all of our lives within the Church of Christ. 
Although I would not call myself a theologian, I have also graduated from Seminary, and hold a PhD in history, specifically the Orthodox Church in the Russian Empire. I served as a canonical Orthodox priest and taught in an Orthodox Seminary for close to 23 years. 
Now to your points: Yes, Christ does indeed have the message of repentance in hope of salvation. We are baptized unto a death like His, so that we might rise like Him. If the Orthodox Church has a solid statement on homosexuality that is negative, then the Church is wrong. The Orthodox Church has never been fundamentalists when it comes to the interpretation of Scripture, and by extension, the reading of the canons or the writings of the Fathers. Certainly you have read the canons, and know that a strict application would fins most bishops excommunicated for years, to say nothing about the laity. To give only one recent example, the current Ecumenical Patriarch is encouraging public, joint prayer with Rome. Certainly this is forbidden by the canons and numerous Fathers, even if one widely interprets them. I am sure that the Fathers would not endorse joint, public prayer with a man who has been declared to be infallible on matters of church dogma. This is a change. 
The sacred writers of Scripture and the Holy Fathers simply did not understand modern day biology, psychology, genetics, and neuroscience, that does not make them unholy. If homosexuality is a manifestation of our fallen nature, then so is heterosexuality. The difference is that you, I assume you are heterosexual, are able to marry someone that you love and create a life with, in order to grow together in holiness. That is what many gay people want. We are no different. We are all called to repentance, but not for something given to us by God, that we did not choose. To do so, would be to reject a gift from the Creator himself. 
I bid you peace,
Andriy]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://orthodoxandgay.com/no-greater-agony-the-untold-story#comment-43420">Bob</a>.</p>
<p>Bob,<br />
Thank you for your email. You are not being disrespectful.  Dialogue on this issue is vital, as it does indeed affect all of our lives within the Church of Christ.<br />
Although I would not call myself a theologian, I have also graduated from Seminary, and hold a PhD in history, specifically the Orthodox Church in the Russian Empire. I served as a canonical Orthodox priest and taught in an Orthodox Seminary for close to 23 years.<br />
Now to your points: Yes, Christ does indeed have the message of repentance in hope of salvation. We are baptized unto a death like His, so that we might rise like Him. If the Orthodox Church has a solid statement on homosexuality that is negative, then the Church is wrong. The Orthodox Church has never been fundamentalists when it comes to the interpretation of Scripture, and by extension, the reading of the canons or the writings of the Fathers. Certainly you have read the canons, and know that a strict application would fins most bishops excommunicated for years, to say nothing about the laity. To give only one recent example, the current Ecumenical Patriarch is encouraging public, joint prayer with Rome. Certainly this is forbidden by the canons and numerous Fathers, even if one widely interprets them. I am sure that the Fathers would not endorse joint, public prayer with a man who has been declared to be infallible on matters of church dogma. This is a change.<br />
The sacred writers of Scripture and the Holy Fathers simply did not understand modern day biology, psychology, genetics, and neuroscience, that does not make them unholy. If homosexuality is a manifestation of our fallen nature, then so is heterosexuality. The difference is that you, I assume you are heterosexual, are able to marry someone that you love and create a life with, in order to grow together in holiness. That is what many gay people want. We are no different. We are all called to repentance, but not for something given to us by God, that we did not choose. To do so, would be to reject a gift from the Creator himself.<br />
I bid you peace,<br />
Andriy</p>
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		<title>
		By: Bob		</title>
		<link>https://orthodoxandgay.com/no-greater-agony-the-untold-story#comment-43420</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Sep 2015 07:00:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.orthodoxandgay.com/?p=1758#comment-43420</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I am an Orthodox theologian having graduated theology at the Greek Orthodox Theological College of Sydney in Australia. I do not mewn ti be disrespectful but I  must say that a lot of the thinking on this site is misguided. Christ&#039;s message is one of repentance from our fallen human condition ... repentance from sin. Our aim as Christians is to grow into God&#039;s likeness and to be co-crucifed with Him so that we may be co-ressurected with Him. We cannot be ressurected without crucifying our fallen human nature ... which means to reject sin and to struggle against it.  It is through the struggle ... through our desire to be with Christ and to become like Him that we will find our salvation. The Curch&#039;s negative stance on homosexuality is that it is a sin ... this is clear and undeniable in the Bible. It has nothing to do with moving with the times ... homosexuality has always been present in human society. .. it is a manifestation of our fallen nature. The Church is our loving Mother and she is here to guide us to our salvation. She would be remiss in her sacred duties to do anything but preach the Gospel of Christ unaltered through the ages ... and the message is Repent for the Kingdom of God is here now for all to partake ... Come and receive the kingdom.

I pray for all of you ... God bless.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am an Orthodox theologian having graduated theology at the Greek Orthodox Theological College of Sydney in Australia. I do not mewn ti be disrespectful but I  must say that a lot of the thinking on this site is misguided. Christ&#8217;s message is one of repentance from our fallen human condition &#8230; repentance from sin. Our aim as Christians is to grow into God&#8217;s likeness and to be co-crucifed with Him so that we may be co-ressurected with Him. We cannot be ressurected without crucifying our fallen human nature &#8230; which means to reject sin and to struggle against it.  It is through the struggle &#8230; through our desire to be with Christ and to become like Him that we will find our salvation. The Curch&#8217;s negative stance on homosexuality is that it is a sin &#8230; this is clear and undeniable in the Bible. It has nothing to do with moving with the times &#8230; homosexuality has always been present in human society. .. it is a manifestation of our fallen nature. The Church is our loving Mother and she is here to guide us to our salvation. She would be remiss in her sacred duties to do anything but preach the Gospel of Christ unaltered through the ages &#8230; and the message is Repent for the Kingdom of God is here now for all to partake &#8230; Come and receive the kingdom.</p>
<p>I pray for all of you &#8230; God bless.</p>
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		<title>
		By: andre		</title>
		<link>https://orthodoxandgay.com/no-greater-agony-the-untold-story#comment-40746</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[andre]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Jun 2015 11:37:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.orthodoxandgay.com/?p=1758#comment-40746</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://orthodoxandgay.com/no-greater-agony-the-untold-story#comment-40718&quot;&gt;Titian&lt;/a&gt;.

You are correct and that is one of the main reasons that I started the website - for discussion in the Church. But I also believe, for those that can, the more open and honest we are about our lives, the better  it will be. Bishops, priests, lay leaders of the Church, need to know we are. Then they can stop fearing us and begin to know us.
Thank you for your comments,
Andriy]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://orthodoxandgay.com/no-greater-agony-the-untold-story#comment-40718">Titian</a>.</p>
<p>You are correct and that is one of the main reasons that I started the website &#8211; for discussion in the Church. But I also believe, for those that can, the more open and honest we are about our lives, the better  it will be. Bishops, priests, lay leaders of the Church, need to know we are. Then they can stop fearing us and begin to know us.<br />
Thank you for your comments,<br />
Andriy</p>
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		<title>
		By: Titian		</title>
		<link>https://orthodoxandgay.com/no-greater-agony-the-untold-story#comment-40718</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Titian]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Jun 2015 10:57:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.orthodoxandgay.com/?p=1758#comment-40718</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Thank you for the encouriging words, Andriy. I find a lot of comfort in the work of activists like M. Vines and J. Cannon. I guess our task as orthodox is to slowly make space for the discussion in our own Church.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for the encouriging words, Andriy. I find a lot of comfort in the work of activists like M. Vines and J. Cannon. I guess our task as orthodox is to slowly make space for the discussion in our own Church.</p>
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		<title>
		By: andre		</title>
		<link>https://orthodoxandgay.com/no-greater-agony-the-untold-story#comment-40679</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[andre]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2015 19:37:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.orthodoxandgay.com/?p=1758#comment-40679</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://orthodoxandgay.com/no-greater-agony-the-untold-story#comment-40611&quot;&gt;mark&lt;/a&gt;.

Mark,
Thank you for your kind comments and support of this website. There are indeed numerous other people like you, and we walk the same road, hopefully not behind or in front of you, but along side of you. There have been many tragic reports about the treatment of gay people in Egypt, which is quite sad and unjust. There have been several statements made by Coptic bishops against gay people. You are right, the bishops and priests need our prayers as well as our openness. Please stay in touch. I bid you peace,
Andriy]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://orthodoxandgay.com/no-greater-agony-the-untold-story#comment-40611">mark</a>.</p>
<p>Mark,<br />
Thank you for your kind comments and support of this website. There are indeed numerous other people like you, and we walk the same road, hopefully not behind or in front of you, but along side of you. There have been many tragic reports about the treatment of gay people in Egypt, which is quite sad and unjust. There have been several statements made by Coptic bishops against gay people. You are right, the bishops and priests need our prayers as well as our openness. Please stay in touch. I bid you peace,<br />
Andriy</p>
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		<title>
		By: andre		</title>
		<link>https://orthodoxandgay.com/no-greater-agony-the-untold-story#comment-40669</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[andre]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2015 13:03:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.orthodoxandgay.com/?p=1758#comment-40669</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://orthodoxandgay.com/no-greater-agony-the-untold-story#comment-40547&quot;&gt;Titian&lt;/a&gt;.

Titian,
You are not crazy and you are certainly not alone. Not only are there numerous LGBT Orthodox throughout the world, but we do have those in the straight community who love and support us.  The hierarchy and clergy are slow to change their attitudes and embrace us, but the Church has always been slow at innovation, and perhaps that is one of the reasons that we love the Church. Please keep posting comments and ideas, suggestions and thoughts.  Through such communication we strength ourselves and make our voice heard.  We also help those too timid to engage.  
I bid you peace,
Andriy]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://orthodoxandgay.com/no-greater-agony-the-untold-story#comment-40547">Titian</a>.</p>
<p>Titian,<br />
You are not crazy and you are certainly not alone. Not only are there numerous LGBT Orthodox throughout the world, but we do have those in the straight community who love and support us.  The hierarchy and clergy are slow to change their attitudes and embrace us, but the Church has always been slow at innovation, and perhaps that is one of the reasons that we love the Church. Please keep posting comments and ideas, suggestions and thoughts.  Through such communication we strength ourselves and make our voice heard.  We also help those too timid to engage.<br />
I bid you peace,<br />
Andriy</p>
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		<title>
		By: Titian		</title>
		<link>https://orthodoxandgay.com/no-greater-agony-the-untold-story#comment-40624</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Titian]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jun 2015 13:33:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.orthodoxandgay.com/?p=1758#comment-40624</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Hey Mark, I&#039;m so glad you wrote. I&#039;ve been wondering for a while what is the attidue of the coptic orthodox church regarding this issue. Even if I am officialy a member of an eastern orthodox church (serbian) after a long discernment and studying I was completely won over by the coptic expression of faith although I stil love my chalcedonian brethren. So I&#039;d like to ask you do you have at least the liberty with your priests to say that you are gay or is it something that you need to hide in order to participate in the communion? I would like to join the coptic church one day (hopefully soon) but this uncertainty whether I&#039;ll be requested to repent from being gay is making me doubting. I  don&#039;t know if you&#039;ll be able to answer me, but anyway, I&#039;m happy for this exchange..]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Mark, I&#8217;m so glad you wrote. I&#8217;ve been wondering for a while what is the attidue of the coptic orthodox church regarding this issue. Even if I am officialy a member of an eastern orthodox church (serbian) after a long discernment and studying I was completely won over by the coptic expression of faith although I stil love my chalcedonian brethren. So I&#8217;d like to ask you do you have at least the liberty with your priests to say that you are gay or is it something that you need to hide in order to participate in the communion? I would like to join the coptic church one day (hopefully soon) but this uncertainty whether I&#8217;ll be requested to repent from being gay is making me doubting. I  don&#8217;t know if you&#8217;ll be able to answer me, but anyway, I&#8217;m happy for this exchange..</p>
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		<title>
		By: mark		</title>
		<link>https://orthodoxandgay.com/no-greater-agony-the-untold-story#comment-40611</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[mark]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jun 2015 03:25:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.orthodoxandgay.com/?p=1758#comment-40611</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Hey, I kinda like this website it gives a good feeling that there&#039;s other ppl with u in the same road u walk in, I&#039;m still confused with the homosexuality thing especially that I&#039;m Egyptian Coptic orthodox and till now we don&#039;t have a clear law about the gay marriage I&#039;m thinking that our church some step towards this thing no one tells us gay here that we devils or any bad thing like I read on the site but the most common idea that we r psycho but I think it&#039;s not just the sex with the same gender thing is the only thing that makes us gay but also falling love with them , I still don&#039;t know what I will do with my life but I wish to be Christian and gay in the same time but I need approval for this thing I need to be blessed not by one or two priests also the bishop himself ,and we always can pray for them to be guided to the right decision about this whole thing]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey, I kinda like this website it gives a good feeling that there&#8217;s other ppl with u in the same road u walk in, I&#8217;m still confused with the homosexuality thing especially that I&#8217;m Egyptian Coptic orthodox and till now we don&#8217;t have a clear law about the gay marriage I&#8217;m thinking that our church some step towards this thing no one tells us gay here that we devils or any bad thing like I read on the site but the most common idea that we r psycho but I think it&#8217;s not just the sex with the same gender thing is the only thing that makes us gay but also falling love with them , I still don&#8217;t know what I will do with my life but I wish to be Christian and gay in the same time but I need approval for this thing I need to be blessed not by one or two priests also the bishop himself ,and we always can pray for them to be guided to the right decision about this whole thing</p>
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