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	Comments on: Patriarch Bartholomew is Not Infallible	</title>
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		<title>
		By: andre		</title>
		<link>https://orthodoxandgay.com/patriarch-bartholomew-is-not-infallible#comment-61037</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[andre]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Jun 2016 15:02:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.orthodoxandgay.com/?p=1132#comment-61037</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://orthodoxandgay.com/patriarch-bartholomew-is-not-infallible#comment-57520&quot;&gt;Joseph&lt;/a&gt;.

Joseph,
Thank you for your comment and support of this website.  The Church has interpreted the writings of St. Paul as well as Scripture in general for centuries. One example is Timothy 3:2, that the bishop must be the husband of one wife. How many Orthodox bishops are married (legally and openly) today? None.
I bid you peace,
Andriy]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://orthodoxandgay.com/patriarch-bartholomew-is-not-infallible#comment-57520">Joseph</a>.</p>
<p>Joseph,<br />
Thank you for your comment and support of this website.  The Church has interpreted the writings of St. Paul as well as Scripture in general for centuries. One example is Timothy 3:2, that the bishop must be the husband of one wife. How many Orthodox bishops are married (legally and openly) today? None.<br />
I bid you peace,<br />
Andriy</p>
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		<title>
		By: Joseph		</title>
		<link>https://orthodoxandgay.com/patriarch-bartholomew-is-not-infallible#comment-57520</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Joseph]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 May 2016 02:58:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.orthodoxandgay.com/?p=1132#comment-57520</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Albeit Saint Paul was a convert and most zealous in his conversion and his love for and following of Christ, he, Saint Paul was not infallible.  His writing may be canonized in scripture and read at liturgies almost daily, he still was not infallible.  I have found many of his writings to be personal opinions on the various matters which he addressed.  I sometimes think the man of Tarsus was deeply in the closet of his time.  Too much credence has been given to him and not enough to Peter and the twelve (which Paul was not one of).  I prefer the words of Christ before anyone else.  Christ sent the woman caught in adultery away, un-condemned and unharmed.  Paul was at the martyrdom of Stephen.  Anyone see the difference?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Albeit Saint Paul was a convert and most zealous in his conversion and his love for and following of Christ, he, Saint Paul was not infallible.  His writing may be canonized in scripture and read at liturgies almost daily, he still was not infallible.  I have found many of his writings to be personal opinions on the various matters which he addressed.  I sometimes think the man of Tarsus was deeply in the closet of his time.  Too much credence has been given to him and not enough to Peter and the twelve (which Paul was not one of).  I prefer the words of Christ before anyone else.  Christ sent the woman caught in adultery away, un-condemned and unharmed.  Paul was at the martyrdom of Stephen.  Anyone see the difference?</p>
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		<title>
		By: James		</title>
		<link>https://orthodoxandgay.com/patriarch-bartholomew-is-not-infallible#comment-33632</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[James]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Jul 2014 12:50:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.orthodoxandgay.com/?p=1132#comment-33632</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Dear Georges et al, I would like to know what sort of science admits several sexes? In my understanding, and forgive my ignorance, there are only two. One is male, the other female. Isn&#039;t this the method that nature so cleverly devised in order for the human race to continue on, reproduce and evolve, so to speak? Maybe, in fact, the human race is actually dying out. We have evolved to a point where we no longer need so many persons to habit the planet. Therefore, evolution, if one so wishes to aknowledge this as an absolute form of natural progress,&#160;has cleverly devised a method of preventing human reproduction - the homosexual, or even multi-polar&#160;human being. I wonder?

It&#039;s either that, or if you believe in God and the Churches&#160;fundamental teachings, that Homosexuality is a sin; a passion if you will, that we must pick up our cross and struggle against. St Paul talks about this in his epistle to the Romans.

&lt;a href=&quot;http://biblehub.com/romans/1.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;God&#039;s Wrath against Sin&lt;/a&gt;
	&#8230;&lt;a href=&quot;http://biblehub.com/romans/1-26.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;26&lt;/a&gt;For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,&#160;&lt;a href=&quot;http://biblehub.com/romans/1-27.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;27&lt;/a&gt;and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.&#160;&lt;a href=&quot;http://biblehub.com/romans/1-28.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;28&lt;/a&gt;And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,&#8230;

Cross References

&lt;a href=&quot;http://biblehub.com/leviticus/18-22.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Leviticus 18:22&lt;/a&gt;
	&#034;&#039;Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.
	
	&lt;a href=&quot;http://biblehub.com/leviticus/20-13.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Leviticus 20:13&lt;/a&gt;
	&#034;&#039;If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
	
	&lt;a href=&quot;http://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/6-9.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;1 Corinthians 6:9&lt;/a&gt;
	Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men
	
	&lt;a href=&quot;http://biblehub.com/jude/1-7.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Jude 1:7&lt;/a&gt;
	In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

I do believe that Christ came and preached a new gospel - one of love and tollerance, but also one of fighting against sin and the passions, with all one&#039;s heart, strength, sould and mind - and love your neighbour as yourself.&#160;

Again, forgive my ignorence, and pray for me.

In Christ,

James]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Georges et al, I would like to know what sort of science admits several sexes? In my understanding, and forgive my ignorance, there are only two. One is male, the other female. Isn&#039;t this the method that nature so cleverly devised in order for the human race to continue on, reproduce and evolve, so to speak? Maybe, in fact, the human race is actually dying out. We have evolved to a point where we no longer need so many persons to habit the planet. Therefore, evolution, if one so wishes to aknowledge this as an absolute form of natural progress,&nbsp;has cleverly devised a method of preventing human reproduction &#8211; the homosexual, or even multi-polar&nbsp;human being. I wonder?</p>
<p>It&#039;s either that, or if you believe in God and the Churches&nbsp;fundamental teachings, that Homosexuality is a sin; a passion if you will, that we must pick up our cross and struggle against. St Paul talks about this in his epistle to the Romans.</p>
<p><a href="http://biblehub.com/romans/1.htm" rel="nofollow">God&#039;s Wrath against Sin</a><br />
	&hellip;<a href="http://biblehub.com/romans/1-26.htm" rel="nofollow">26</a>For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,&nbsp;<a href="http://biblehub.com/romans/1-27.htm" rel="nofollow">27</a>and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.&nbsp;<a href="http://biblehub.com/romans/1-28.htm" rel="nofollow">28</a>And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,&hellip;</p>
<p>Cross References</p>
<p><a href="http://biblehub.com/leviticus/18-22.htm" rel="nofollow">Leviticus 18:22</a><br />
	&quot;&#039;Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.</p>
<p>	<a href="http://biblehub.com/leviticus/20-13.htm" rel="nofollow">Leviticus 20:13</a><br />
	&quot;&#039;If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.</p>
<p>	<a href="http://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/6-9.htm" rel="nofollow">1 Corinthians 6:9</a><br />
	Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men</p>
<p>	<a href="http://biblehub.com/jude/1-7.htm" rel="nofollow">Jude 1:7</a><br />
	In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.</p>
<p>I do believe that Christ came and preached a new gospel &#8211; one of love and tollerance, but also one of fighting against sin and the passions, with all one&#039;s heart, strength, sould and mind &#8211; and love your neighbour as yourself.&nbsp;</p>
<p>Again, forgive my ignorence, and pray for me.</p>
<p>In Christ,</p>
<p>James</p>
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		<title>
		By: Georges		</title>
		<link>https://orthodoxandgay.com/patriarch-bartholomew-is-not-infallible#comment-33254</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Georges]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Jan 2014 15:08:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.orthodoxandgay.com/?p=1132#comment-33254</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[The problem of the patriarch is two-fold.

First, most of the Churches are celibate-oriented. If you look carefully in the menaions for the 12 months, there&#039;s no heterosexual non-martyr couple named to be saints. The Western has only two: saint Paulinus, bishop of Nola, with his wife Tharaisa/Therese; and saint Isidore the farmer and his wife Mary of the Head. On the other hand, almost every day, the menaia and martyrologia recall lots of monks. Since the Trullo &quot;council&quot;, bishops cannot get married. Isn&#039;t the marriage a sacrament, and the monastic profession a non-sacrament? Why then monasticism gave more fruits than the marriages? They lack recognizing the sanctity of what they call a sacrament, only because their catechisms do. That&#039;s a late, poisoned, theology of the marriage. The patriarchs and his fellows have issues with same-gender-marriage, just because they still have issues with different-gender-marriages.

The second problem is science and the lack thereof. What&#039;s the difference between a male and a female? In fact, science admits several sexes, other than the dual male/female.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem of the patriarch is two-fold.</p>
<p>First, most of the Churches are celibate-oriented. If you look carefully in the menaions for the 12 months, there&#8217;s no heterosexual non-martyr couple named to be saints. The Western has only two: saint Paulinus, bishop of Nola, with his wife Tharaisa/Therese; and saint Isidore the farmer and his wife Mary of the Head. On the other hand, almost every day, the menaia and martyrologia recall lots of monks. Since the Trullo &#8220;council&#8221;, bishops cannot get married. Isn&#8217;t the marriage a sacrament, and the monastic profession a non-sacrament? Why then monasticism gave more fruits than the marriages? They lack recognizing the sanctity of what they call a sacrament, only because their catechisms do. That&#8217;s a late, poisoned, theology of the marriage. The patriarchs and his fellows have issues with same-gender-marriage, just because they still have issues with different-gender-marriages.</p>
<p>The second problem is science and the lack thereof. What&#8217;s the difference between a male and a female? In fact, science admits several sexes, other than the dual male/female.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Takis		</title>
		<link>https://orthodoxandgay.com/patriarch-bartholomew-is-not-infallible#comment-33240</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Takis]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Jan 2014 19:11:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.orthodoxandgay.com/?p=1132#comment-33240</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I am afraid that there is no Saint (the tue exegetes of Scripture) or Scripture in support of what you call &quot;God&#039;s will&quot; (ie: &quot;For&quot; rahther than &quot;against&quot; homosexuality). 

That modernity promises to supposedly stop what it perceives as suffering, is a ruse -especially from a spiritual perspective. The Church asks man to actually embrace suffering, and to ascesis -to divest the &#039;old man&#039;. That is not asking for &quot;man to be alone&quot; exactly. However, it obviously asks we are as chaste as we can, and refrain from sexual practices such as sodomy  - whatever our attractions. The rules are there and being hellbent on changing them does not make someone come across as wanting union with Christ first and foremost. Calling our desires a &quot;bleesing that God Himself has willed&quot; or a &quot;calling&quot; (especially when the backing is the Churches extreme economy being asked to become even more extreme) maintanis that flawed reasoning I am trying to explain is the main issue at hand here...]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am afraid that there is no Saint (the tue exegetes of Scripture) or Scripture in support of what you call &#8220;God&#8217;s will&#8221; (ie: &#8220;For&#8221; rahther than &#8220;against&#8221; homosexuality). </p>
<p>That modernity promises to supposedly stop what it perceives as suffering, is a ruse -especially from a spiritual perspective. The Church asks man to actually embrace suffering, and to ascesis -to divest the &#8216;old man&#8217;. That is not asking for &#8220;man to be alone&#8221; exactly. However, it obviously asks we are as chaste as we can, and refrain from sexual practices such as sodomy  &#8211; whatever our attractions. The rules are there and being hellbent on changing them does not make someone come across as wanting union with Christ first and foremost. Calling our desires a &#8220;bleesing that God Himself has willed&#8221; or a &#8220;calling&#8221; (especially when the backing is the Churches extreme economy being asked to become even more extreme) maintanis that flawed reasoning I am trying to explain is the main issue at hand here&#8230;</p>
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		<title>
		By: andre		</title>
		<link>https://orthodoxandgay.com/patriarch-bartholomew-is-not-infallible#comment-33239</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[andre]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Jan 2014 02:04:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.orthodoxandgay.com/?p=1132#comment-33239</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://orthodoxandgay.com/patriarch-bartholomew-is-not-infallible#comment-33237&quot;&gt;Takis&lt;/a&gt;.

Takis,
The Church DOES do what you are writing about - remarriage for a second, third and in a few cases a fourth time.  The Church has always recognizes that &quot;it is not good for man to be alone&quot;. Since I am in my first marriage, this is not in anyway an adulterous relationship.  The rite of brotherhood has been used for centuries by the Church, and I have suggested that it be used for gay marriages.  Gay Orthodox for the most part are NOT called to celibacy.  We are called to love and be loved in relationships blessed by God. We are not calling for relationships that are illegal or immoral. We are asking for the outward blessing of the Church, a blessing that God Himself has willed.  
Andriy]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://orthodoxandgay.com/patriarch-bartholomew-is-not-infallible#comment-33237">Takis</a>.</p>
<p>Takis,<br />
The Church DOES do what you are writing about &#8211; remarriage for a second, third and in a few cases a fourth time.  The Church has always recognizes that &#8220;it is not good for man to be alone&#8221;. Since I am in my first marriage, this is not in anyway an adulterous relationship.  The rite of brotherhood has been used for centuries by the Church, and I have suggested that it be used for gay marriages.  Gay Orthodox for the most part are NOT called to celibacy.  We are called to love and be loved in relationships blessed by God. We are not calling for relationships that are illegal or immoral. We are asking for the outward blessing of the Church, a blessing that God Himself has willed.<br />
Andriy</p>
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		<title>
		By: Takis		</title>
		<link>https://orthodoxandgay.com/patriarch-bartholomew-is-not-infallible#comment-33237</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Takis]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Jan 2014 12:01:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.orthodoxandgay.com/?p=1132#comment-33237</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Sorry if it came across that way! I am not saying homosexuality is in any way synonymous with pedophilia. The difference is, of course, huge! 
I also hoped that this extreme example/comparison I used -(for the&quot; sake of argument&quot; as I clarified but that clarification was missed entirely - I guess I shouldn&#039;t have used it...)- would simply demonstrate that &lt;i&gt;anyone can claim that their desires are God-made and therefore should be blessed&lt;/i&gt; however, that logic is faulty in the extreme...
THAT is my point here.
Also, you cannot bring the law into this argument, as the law was different a few years ago concerning homosexuality too - and still is in many places. So it is beside the point.
Let&#039;s use another example then:

I am married with children. I am attracted to another woman (or man - the issue here is adultery). I have a God-inspired desire for such a consensual relationship in my own mind. Does that mean the Chruch should change its tradition and bless this?
Sorry again for the unfortunate earlier example above!

Also, I have never heard of the rite of brotherhood used as a marriage - isn&#039;t that what St Sergius and Bachus had to confirm their brotherly bond?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry if it came across that way! I am not saying homosexuality is in any way synonymous with pedophilia. The difference is, of course, huge!<br />
I also hoped that this extreme example/comparison I used -(for the&#8221; sake of argument&#8221; as I clarified but that clarification was missed entirely &#8211; I guess I shouldn&#8217;t have used it&#8230;)- would simply demonstrate that <i>anyone can claim that their desires are God-made and therefore should be blessed</i> however, that logic is faulty in the extreme&#8230;<br />
THAT is my point here.<br />
Also, you cannot bring the law into this argument, as the law was different a few years ago concerning homosexuality too &#8211; and still is in many places. So it is beside the point.<br />
Let&#8217;s use another example then:</p>
<p>I am married with children. I am attracted to another woman (or man &#8211; the issue here is adultery). I have a God-inspired desire for such a consensual relationship in my own mind. Does that mean the Chruch should change its tradition and bless this?<br />
Sorry again for the unfortunate earlier example above!</p>
<p>Also, I have never heard of the rite of brotherhood used as a marriage &#8211; isn&#8217;t that what St Sergius and Bachus had to confirm their brotherly bond?</p>
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		<title>
		By: andre		</title>
		<link>https://orthodoxandgay.com/patriarch-bartholomew-is-not-infallible#comment-33236</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[andre]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Jan 2014 10:54:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.orthodoxandgay.com/?p=1132#comment-33236</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://orthodoxandgay.com/patriarch-bartholomew-is-not-infallible#comment-33235&quot;&gt;Takis&lt;/a&gt;.

Your question is offensive. Homosexuality is NOT synonymous with pedophilia. Also what you are suggesting is against the law. Minors can&#039;t consent to such relationships. Gay MEN are attracted to gay MEN. If you do not see the difference between blessing the long term and mature relationship of two grown men and NOT the unlawful, perverted relationship between you and a three year old, then I would not know where to begin a discussion with you, and therefore would end ours. 
Andriy]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://orthodoxandgay.com/patriarch-bartholomew-is-not-infallible#comment-33235">Takis</a>.</p>
<p>Your question is offensive. Homosexuality is NOT synonymous with pedophilia. Also what you are suggesting is against the law. Minors can&#8217;t consent to such relationships. Gay MEN are attracted to gay MEN. If you do not see the difference between blessing the long term and mature relationship of two grown men and NOT the unlawful, perverted relationship between you and a three year old, then I would not know where to begin a discussion with you, and therefore would end ours.<br />
Andriy</p>
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		<title>
		By: Takis		</title>
		<link>https://orthodoxandgay.com/patriarch-bartholomew-is-not-infallible#comment-33235</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Takis]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jan 2014 22:08:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.orthodoxandgay.com/?p=1132#comment-33235</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I have a simple question for you – please don’t delete it as it is KEY to understanding each other here….
Let’s say that I have a God instilled ‘desire to create a loving relationship’ and I also have a “God made” sexual attraction to three to six year olds (I am obviously being extreme here for the sake of argument), does that mean the Church should bless this?????? Is that not the “logic” in most of what is being said here – as in your above comment!?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have a simple question for you – please don’t delete it as it is KEY to understanding each other here….<br />
Let’s say that I have a God instilled ‘desire to create a loving relationship’ and I also have a “God made” sexual attraction to three to six year olds (I am obviously being extreme here for the sake of argument), does that mean the Church should bless this?????? Is that not the “logic” in most of what is being said here – as in your above comment!?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Anonymous		</title>
		<link>https://orthodoxandgay.com/patriarch-bartholomew-is-not-infallible#comment-33234</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jan 2014 17:26:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.orthodoxandgay.com/?p=1132#comment-33234</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Takis,
I have a simple question for you - please don&#039;t delete it as it is KEY to understanding each other here....
Let&#039;s say that I have a God instilled &#039;desire to create a loving relationship&#039; and I also have a &quot;God made&quot; sexual attraction to three to six year olds (I am obviously being extreme here for the sake of argument), does that mean the Church should bless this?????? Is that not the &quot;logic&quot; in most of what is being said here - as in your above comment!?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Takis,<br />
I have a simple question for you &#8211; please don&#8217;t delete it as it is KEY to understanding each other here&#8230;.<br />
Let&#8217;s say that I have a God instilled &#8216;desire to create a loving relationship&#8217; and I also have a &#8220;God made&#8221; sexual attraction to three to six year olds (I am obviously being extreme here for the sake of argument), does that mean the Church should bless this?????? Is that not the &#8220;logic&#8221; in most of what is being said here &#8211; as in your above comment!?</p>
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